Client Shares Healing His Anxious Attachment

Healing an anxious attachment isn't easy but it is possible.

 My client agreed to sit down and share his journey - what he went through as an anxious attached person, what he has learned and how he continues to grow and feel empowered in his relationships. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Thank you so much for agreeing to do this discussion with me on Decoding Attachment Stell, which is the name of this podcast. We're going to be talking about a man having anxious attachment, which is not something that we generally hear about. We tend to believe that women are the only ones who have an anxious attachment, men have an avoidant attachment. But you have also been able to heal your anxious attachment more so on your own.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, I've had some input from you.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Which is also something not easily done. And you're here to share how you've done that, how you act and react differently in your relationships now. I don't use names. I I you know if you prefer to use a pseudonym, perfectly fine. We could use initials for people that you want to mention, and that's all to keep everything confidential. Yeah. We'll play that by yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll see how that goes. I mean, you and I have had discussions in the past, so all right. We were just talking about AI, which is a really big thing. Oh, before I get into that, since I brought up AI, you are giving me permission to share the audio of our presentation.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Right. And this is going to be on the podcast. We were just talking about AI and the information that it's giving people. And I find it what you just said to be very insightful. So I'll ask you to let's get this conversation going by you just repeating what you just said.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yeah, sure. It's this notion, and one of the things that kind of made me think about it was was actually from social media. And it was it was a real, this guy's in the car, and he's talking about when do we become a society of people just ignoring each other for validation and attention? Whatever happened to just speaking the truth and saying, Hey, I love you, putting it out there kind of thing. And I was like, Yeah, that's so true. Because when you're in that that post-heartbreak moral panic, should we say you're in a vulnerable state and you're looking for answers, answers you can't find within yourself, and you kind of you get to the point with your friends and family, we think, I sound like a broken record, I sound like a broken record, I'm doing my own head in here. And we all oh, I think a lot of people don't know quite how sycophantic AI models are, they just tell you what you want to hear. You're never wrong, they're never gonna really challenge you. And the danger zone that I I was thinking is if everyone out there now is all using ChatGBT or Claude or whatever to get relationship advice because they burn out their their support network, or at least they feel they have. If we're all being told the same thing, like, don't reach out, don't do this, don't chase, don't don't tell them how you feel, you'll, you know, and all the law of attraction stuff that goes on. You've got a whole society of people out there just not being honest with each other and just holding it all in, waiting for the other person to make that move. And I was thinking, is anyone ever gonna talk to anyone ever again about feelings? Because it seems to me that they're just talking to their phone and their phones go, no, don't say this, don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Well, I mean, what I find AI validates, it's an algorithm, it's programmed to say the thing that the person needs to say so that they keep coming back. It's it's business, right? They're they're business people running this thing, so it's an AI gathers information from humans out there, and and there are so many experts now in the field, right? Using my quotations, everybody's grabbing AI content and shoving it out on social media, and you could tell, like I could see the inverted commas or the long dashes, you know what social media and the language is always really generic, nothing specific, it doesn't have a personality, but not everyone's able to catch on to that. And those who are getting sucked into the AI culture, they don't realize this is a machine that's meant to validate your feelings. And the thing about us is we feel good when we're validated and we keep that it's the feeling we're coming back for, which is what AI does. Now, with friends, they call us out on our bullshit. They're going to look at us and say, Look, you keep making the same goddamn mistakes. You need to walk away from this person. This person is showing you they don't care, and that does not feel good. No, so we've got AI competing with our friends, and AI is this loving, supportive mentor and friend and lover and all of it, and it constantly makes us feel good. And yeah, we're losing human connections mainly because some of us don't like honesty.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Some of us, the ones, some of us, especially some of us who are saying the other person's not taking accountability, we also don't want to take accountability. And yeah, it's becoming a mess, but here's my thing on it. Those of us who are willing to grow, we know that it comes with harsh criticisms and reflection and change. And that's not going to be the majority of the world's population because that is not how the world runs. You need some people to grow, and you need some to help the others who are meant to grow, grow. It's kind of how I see it. But enough about how I see the world. Tell me how have you been seeing the world as a now secure attached person or a more secure attached person. More secure. Yeah, and who used to be crawling out of your skin as an anxious attached.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Oh god, yeah. I mean, I would not say I'm healed, but then the journey is perpetual, isn't it? It's not uh it's not linear, and you're not just gonna be you're never gonna be properly healed, I don't think, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

And it's never going to end. The healing never ends, it shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

No, no, and that's that is the journey, isn't it? I guess I've done a lot of reflection, a lot of looking at how I how I was in my in my marriage, which has come to an end. It's very easy, like we're saying about accountability, to just almost comfort yourself by blaming the other person. And it just isn't that's not reality. That's not reality. You know, I I was I was diagnosed with ADHD in 2021, so I was late diagnosed, and that definitely had an impact looking back, but it's not an excuse, and it certainly isn't an excuse moving forward, and that was that was part of it as well is recognising where those traits came in. And see, I'm I'm doing it now, my mind's going off all over the place. So I'm thinking about this. Yeah, like even with a diagnosis about AHD, there's an accountability there. Everything that happened before, you can kind of draw a line and go, okay, let's learn from that, you know. And then you're accountable after that. Because just because I'm neurodiverse, that doesn't excuse anything. My behavior in relationships. Yes, it will impact, you know. We haven't talked about RSD yet, but but that I can tell you is a real thing, and and it's it's the worst part of a breakup for me. That that constant rumination, the constant going back over, the constant if you get rejected in any way, if a friend doesn't invite you to something or invites your last, yeah, it's a real thing, but it's recognising that. And as part of that journey as well, it's it's going, that's me, that's that's something I have to override because that's not reality. I'm making that my reality when it's probably not, you know. I I read far too much into things, tone, everything. Like if I get a message and it's and it reads quite blunt, I will take it as well. Okay, but that doesn't mean it is, it's me doing that, and that's where I've got to check myself. And you know, looking at myself within my marriage about how sensitive I was, because that's been one of my problems is other people's emotions, and I'm very reactive to other people's emotions, almost take it on as my own, and that's something I'm definitely having to work on. I find that hard, you know, like interactions with my ex-wife. I will take them badly sometimes when she hasn't meant it like that, and I'm having to, and vice versa as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

I waffled a bit there, didn't I? I went off all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

No, I love it. I love it, I love it. Because you know what, as someone who was anxiously attached as well, yeah, we all struggle with this. And and so I think, you know, when I was anxiously attached, I thought men had no feelings. And as a part of my research, when I first started doing the research and attachment styles, like, do you feel stuff? And it was to ask how they felt. We don't really don't see it on the outside, right? And also I'm thinking because as a heterosexual woman dating men, I was constantly attracted to avoidant attached men. It's an it's an unconscious thing where you just seek out the anxious attached for me. I they would irk the bejesus out of me. Later on, I learned what that was. It was that I was seeing things within them that was reflecting the mistakes I was making. I was hurting myself and I'm seeing it in them. And now it still bothers me to a degree, but now it's like, oh gosh, I know you've got the power in you. I know you're a beautiful, smart, kind, strong, deserving human being, you can get out of this. So the arc has changed from oof, you're reminding me of emotional weakness in me to ah, I could see your strength and I know you can get out of it. But to talk to a man who has been dealing with the same anxious attached thoughts and feelings, that is rare in our world as we hear it on social media. I'm not saying rare in our world overall, but we're not hearing a lot of it on social media. So it's wonderful that you shared so much. I want to dig a little deeper into what does that feel like? What are you constantly thinking, ruminating about? What are those exact thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 10:55

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Let's use one of when you and your, you know, your soon-to-be ex-wife sends a message to you and you think that this is blunt or harsh or hurtful.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

It feels like an attack. It feels like an attack. It feels like an attack on something I've done. And that's that's definitely something I'm still I'm still working on that. You know, I can take things as an attack, even though I don't react now, I'll respond. I'll take a minute and respond. I mean, sometimes depends on how tired I am. If I'm stressed, I might snap back on something, but yeah, it will I think it's kind of hard to quantify, but I guess I I always felt and not just with her, just with other relationships, I can easily feel attacked and get very defensive. And that's not good. That's not good for me because because you end up getting quite anxious about it, and I guess it goes back to that not good enough, like a like it's a failure of communication, or wherever it is, I forgot to do something, I didn't do that, I didn't communicate properly. And you and you take it as yeah, it's like a failure, I suppose, not good enough, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, what's interesting is what you're describing there. Many will listen to this and they'll say, but that sounds like an avoidant attached person, not feeling good enough, feeling defensive, feeling attacked. What we want to remember is that every human being will feel all of these emotions. It's just how we respond and react when we have it. And anxious attached persons can also shut down, they get very quiet, and that comes from a fear of yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Then that that's another thing I used to do, shut down in arguments, just go quiet, totally withdrawal, and it becomes all-consuming, you know. And I think when it comes to attack like attachment styles, it's it's kind of a been a bit of a buzzword in social media, and it's made out to be so pigeonholed and so black and white cut and dry. And it just isn't, is it? As uh as we know, we've had these conversations and I've learned more about it, and it's more like a scatograph, I would say, isn't it? Of like, yes, you might be predominantly anxiously attached, but you've got all these other bits because every single person's upbringing is different. There's just so much nuance in everyone's experience, everyone's trauma. You can't just pigeonhole someone as, oh, they're like this, this is how they're gonna react. And I think that's been like a it is a dangerous thing. And when you've got these AI models, which are supposedly trained on attachment styles, they don't allow for nuance and personality and individual trauma and individual bonds between that person you're anxiously attached and dismissive avoidance, say that's great. You could probably roughly get some I can't think of the word now, get them in the same room kind of thing as to how they're gonna react. But you can't figure out how they're gonna sit next to each other because there's too much going on in that relationship that's different from someone else who uh like the same as those attachment styles.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Yeah, it's it's a lot, it's a lot, and that is why they say psychology is not an exact science. We're because we're dealing with human beings, no human being is exactly the same as the other. And then you get the question like, oh, so how'd you come up with attachment styles? Again, it's how we react and respond when we're uncomfortable. That's it, that's the baseline of it. You know, if a person tends to run, feel overwhelmed, shut down, and can't come back and communicate, they're leaning more avoidant, and it's emotional maturity has something to do with it. More and more people are talking about the healthy masculine energy uh and feminine energy within us. Cultures play a part, you know, religion plays a part, everything plays a part in a human makeup. So it's not a case of, oh, you're avoidant attached. You have an avoidant attachment, which is another part of the language that we've got to be careful of. We don't ever say the person is a fever, we say they have a fever, right? So avoidant attachment is not the entire human being, it's just a part of their personality, yeah, as is longer curly hair or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of interesting as well. There's a lot of a lot of content that gets pushed, and that's the thing. We talk about algorithms as well. What gets pushed on you? It's in my opinion, quite dangerous where you click on one video, you like it because it resonates. You know, everyone's talking about this kind of thing anyway. It shows you more of the same. And when it comes to uh particularly like dismissive, you've got dismissive avoidance and the fearful avoidance. Fearful avoidance. There's a lot of content that just says like avoid fearful avoidance, avoid them. And it's like, well, that's a that's a whole bunch of people we're talking about. And you're just you you're using this black and white formula to discard them.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

It's like about 27% of the population.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah, what so 27% of the population are just not worthy of anyone's attention or love. Okay, that sounds a bit harsh.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

And you're generally coming from the people who want to be loved, yeah. Generally coming from the people who have felt abandoned and discarded, and we're that's that's the hypocrisy of it. That the it's quite amusing. We and let's talk about me as anxious attached for a second. Oh my gosh, was I angry? Was I angry at an ex for not stepping up and doing the healing work so that I could get what I want out of this relationship? I didn't know it was that way back then. I didn't know that I was just trying to get what I want to make me happy. Was I in therapy? No, was I reading up? Sure, but I wasn't using the tools, I wasn't trying to understand them. So now I'm angry at you for abandoning me. And now I'm saying to you, you should be abandoned. Everyone should leave you. And I get it. The anger, it's valid. I get it, I've been there, yeah, but it doesn't make sense. We don't avoid the avoidance when we do that, and and you and I have spoken about this. I really do believe that these two keep clashing so that we could learn something from the other and grow. You know, relationships, I believe, if you're in a relationship and it's not helping you to grow, it's not inspiring your growth, it's not a relationship you should be in. And I would imagine that this is how your healing journey started. You must have been inspired. Somebody must have beaten you down so hard that you're like, okay, I gotta look at me now.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

I think I don't know. I think like my ex-wife had some, she had some valid points, you know, and other parties who have come into my life have have made me look at myself, you know, since since her. And yeah, you know, obviously there was something there, this especially around the anxiety that would make me shut down. And it's like, what the hell's that about? Where does that come from? I've got to do something about it. I can't just ignore it and hope that the next time I meet someone, it's gonna be different. Why should I inflict that on someone else? It's you know, it's my responsibility. I mean, I've always done a lot of therapy, I've always been a big advocate of therapy. I don't think it's it's quite as accepted in the UK as it is in the States. I mean, it's getting better. You know, I'm always very open, especially with my clients. I think I'm fairly good at reading people, and I can tell when someone's going through some stuff. So I'll open up about myself a little bit and then they'll open up and and then I'll we'll have a conversation about like I'll say, have you ever sort of spoken to anyone? They're like, Oh no, I can never do therapy. I'm like, dude, you're doing it right now. You're doing it right now. Just I don't have the tools to help you there. But and I've done my thing where I've gone off a tangent again. But no, about therapy, about always like therapy, because I've always been interested in like human psychology because it doesn't just help me understand me, it helps me understand the other people and reading people, and and it just helps the human experience, I think. As I've always looked at it as like Jim for the mind.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

And it is, it is, or for the emotions. I find though, what what happens with a lot of people is that they learn so much about themselves and it through psychology, learning up, you know, reading these self-help books and psychological uh books in psychology that they find. And what tend to happen is they develop so much empathy for others, and they realize they don't realize that there's also a need for boundaries. So learning about human behavior, that's great. Right. One of the things that I learned in psychology school is you have to have boundaries because when you're if you're training to become a psychologist, you have to know not to take on their pain. Your job is to help them through the pain. And in relationships, we tend to think that, okay, I know so much about my partner, let me have some more empathy. And so when they behave in ways that hurts us, instead of saying, Whoa, this isn't okay, a boundary, we say, No, I understand their pain, I know where they're from. Have you struggled with that?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Oh, yeah, oh, definitely. I've I I would say I used to be a chronic people pleaser. I'm working on it 100%. Setting boundaries was a weakness of mine, without a doubt. I was the guy, and you know, to say I'm not anymore is is would be a lie, but the guy who avoids conflict and keeps the peace, and that and that's not you know, that's not an honest place to be. You you abandon yourself, and that's where anxiety and depression can start to sprout up because you're not living to your true self, you're playing a character that that helps everyone else but doesn't help you, and then people start taking advantage. I would say one of the things I noticed when the breakup started like what two years ago, and in that period since to to then and now the friendship dynamics the people that I would kind of or at least I felt that I was there for weren't when I was the one who needed the help and That's what I mean. I was giving too much to myself. And then when you were in the in in in in in trouble, oh right, okay. So it was transactional then. Okay. So that was a big learning lesson. Yeah. So that's something I'm definitely trying to be more no can be a sentence. That's a beautiful sentence. You know, try not to overexplain and just don't don't say no and then give a reason, a big long just to say no, I can't. Yeah. Or no, I'm not available. Rather than I would always give someone a big reason why, or or then perhaps I'd move plans to accommodate that person because I'd feel bad. All those kind of things.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Why the big reason? Why did you go on and on about your reason why you can't do something?

SPEAKER_01 22:48

To justify it to myself that I wasn't a bad person for letting someone down, I suppose. You know, the thought of letting anyone down. Because I think I don't know if it was a like a like a time of life in the 80s when you grew up and it was think of put others before yourself. It was all that kind of mentality, and that's kind of done some damage. It's like, yes, of course, be kind to others and think about how your actions impact other people. You don't have to put them first because you abandon yourself in the process, and that's going to come back and bite you in the ass when you're in your 40s.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yeah, you know, uh, I grew up in a Christian home, and I I love the teachings of Jesus. I still follow a lot of his teachings, and and you grew up in in the home in an Indian culture, and it's the same thing, just give and give and give, and turn the other cheek, and you know. But then as I grew older and and continued to study some of Jesus' work, he when he got pissed off, he got pissed off. He upturned, like when he went to the temple and saw them taking the tax money from the poor, he just upturned all the table. The guy had boundaries. There was a story that I've I've shared with some of my like my Christian clients who have a hard time setting boundaries. There's a story of Lazarus. Do you know that story? Lazarus dies and the message is sent to Jesus. He was sick, he was really, really sick. Send the message off to Jesus. Do you know that story?

SPEAKER_01 24:18

I'm not sure, do I actually? I probably will when you start recounting it.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

So, yeah. So Lazarus is really, really great friends with Jesus. They're best of friends, and Lazarus is sick. Jesus gets the message that he's sick, come and heal him. But Jesus is busy, he's doing something out there. And he's like, Yeah, I'll come. And then a few days after, three days, for those of you who are biblical scholars, you'll excuse me if you're listening to this. Two days, maybe three days, Jesus decides, okay, he shows up, and they're like, Well, where were you? You know, he died. And Jesus is like, okay, fine. He goes up, heals Lazarus, and Lazarus gets up and everything's okay. But really, what we we don't see there, a lot of people listening to this story or hearing reading about the story, they'll say, Oh my gosh, why couldn't Jesus just get up and just go right away and leave what he was doing? It's his friend. Like, and that's what we do. We abandon the thing that we're doing to rush off when someone needs us because we don't know our value in these relationships, and we don't know our power. And the story of Jesus is the guy knew his value and his power, and he knew he was needed. What he was doing right now was a priority. I'm sorry, not that Lazarus and his family were not a priority. It's just what I'm also doing now is a priority. And a lot of times when we get into our relationships, our personal relationships, the relationship, not even the relationship, the person that we're in the relationship with becomes the priority. Instead of us remembering that there's so many departments of our lives that need to be a priority at the appropriate time. And that's why many of us cannot, we try to protect the relationship, and we forget that there's so many other areas that need to be looked at, and then we just don't have a boundary.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah, and I think that that really resonates because that was certainly me. I there are numerous occasions where I would, I'm not sure she would agree, but from my recollection, there were numerous times where I cut what I was doing short or wasn't present because I was too worried about getting back or doing, you know, well, making sure that she was okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah, rushing off to Lazarus.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Exactly, exactly that, yeah. And that bit was imminent of me, without a doubt. That was probably one of the the the pillars of the breakup because I ended things, it was me. But when you look back, you know, you can see I can probably see where the cracks all started.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

What would you have done differently?

SPEAKER_01 27:13

That's hard to say because it it also it would also depend on the nuance of her behavior with my behaviour changing. So you s you don't really know. So I'd I I I I'd find that hard to answer, other than I probably set more boundaries, but then that could have led to a whole different like set of circumstances. Yeah, I'm not in control of how she would react.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Okay, now let's say what would you do differently in a new relationship?

SPEAKER_01 27:44

I'd do my dad just to set the boundaries to start with, and just much clearer communication. Much clearer communication.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

What do you think that was not clear about communicating then that would be different now?

SPEAKER_01 28:00

The people pleasing, 100%. The the not putting myself in any way first, at least that's how I saw it, you know, that's how I see it. And I'm still gonna struggle with that. Be honest, I'm I'm still gonna struggle with that. You know, I don't I can't say, oh yes, my immediate next relationship, I'm gonna go right, this, this, this, this, this, this is my red. I obviously doesn't work like that. But there's still gonna be that pull to want that person to like me for what I can offer, rather than just what I offer being enough and I accept it. I'll I I'll I try and show them all the time, you know, look, I've got I can do this for you, I can do that for you. It's just and and then that becomes expected, I suppose, and then you can't go back because if I suddenly go, actually I'm not doing that anymore because that's not not okay, and that's a lot harder to go back on than if I just say start as you mean to go on, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Yeah, I like to look at it as you know, going you see a job, then they're applying, they're they're hiring, and you want a position in this company. You really you know about the company to a degree, you like it, you want a position there. And what you do is you study the company, yeah. This is the new person that you're dating, you're learning everything about them, and you start to adapt in yourself to what they would like. So, in all of it, you know, people say it's manipulation. Human beings manipulate all the time, all the time, every day. But my concern is manipulation with intent to hurt, right? That's different. Now, you're going for the job interview, you're gonna say the right things, you're saying what you know the company wants to hear, and that's what we do in dating. However, also like a beautiful painting, right? If the person doesn't know what went into the making of the painting, they're not gonna be able to appreciate it. So at interviews, we give surface-level talks. We don't show them our depth. Okay, if I show someone a painting and they don't know anything about art, they'll just look at it as like, oh my gosh, why is this$12 million? This is just a piece of crap. It's just paint. I could do this. But if you know that it's from the 17th century and they had to crush blue flowers to get the blue paint and get it to that texture, you might have a different appreciation for it in the different layers. Now, the problem with us humans when we're dating someone is we don't show them the layers because we want them to like us and we think that what made us up, setting boundaries is going to push them away.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

But when you are able to set a boundary, when you're able to say, no, this doesn't feel good for me. I won't be able to continue with this behavior. What you're telling them there is that you've spent all your life building up the resilience, the courage, the strength, the inner self-value, self-respect to be able to say to this human being, uh-oh, no. And that, like a painting that you know about, is so incredibly attractive. Suddenly you understand why it's worth$15 million or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Because it has value.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

And that's what you want. And people don't, we're so scared to say, you know what, I've been through shit when I was five and six years old. So now I could say, no, you don't get to treat me that way.

SPEAKER_04 31:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

They play it all down, and we can't set boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Sounds like me in a nutshell to that.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

No, it's and it's hard. It's hard for us to see how valuable we are because we don't spend a whole lot of time with ourselves. We spend time with other people, even when we're not with them, we're constantly thinking what to do to make them happy.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Now tell me, what are five things that someone could do in a relationship to make you happy?

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Oh, I don't like people on the spot.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

My mind goes blank. I get grief for this all the time. Five things I expect consistency, and I know that's just a bit of an umbrella term, but consistency in the way someone shows up, not hot and cold, can't be dealing with hot and cold, just consistent behavior so that you just calm down because you know what to expect, you know that that person's behaving a certain way. I can't I can't be dealing with someone going quiet for no reason for a long period of time. And I know that might sound odd, but I've been told that my communication is quite good, as in if I know I'm gonna be busy or someone messages me, it's something that requires some thought. I always message back going, Hey, I need some time to think on this, not ignoring you. I'm at work, I'll get back to you later. And if it's a long time, I'll message again just saying, Hey, not ignoring you. But I expect that kind of behavior back, sort of thing. Is it just me being anxiously attached? If someone just goes completely quiet for 12 hours, it's like you you're okay. Then you've got the urge to double tech. I don't want to be that person, I don't be doing that. So it's about respect, I think, and um that's that's something 100%. When it comes to I'm quite a touchy-feedy person, you know, I'm quite like touch is a thing for me. I grew up in a in a house where there wasn't any of that. So when if I'm if I'm not getting that reciprocated, that makes me anxious and holding little touches on the shoulder. So someone who can show like affection without me leading it all the time. Oh I can't like three more now, haven't I?

SPEAKER_03 34:06

I suppose someone who's someone who's interested in in me as a person, not just on a surface level, yeah, there's gotta be someone that I can relate to. It all sounds a bit simple, doesn't it? But I I think I've got some quite simple needs really. Yeah, just I don't even know what to say now. I've just gone completely blank.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Simple, simple needs. I'm I'm stuck on on you saying you have simple needs. I remember as an anxious attached, I thought so too. I thought I'm pretty easy to please, but again, it came from a place of not yet knowing who I really was, and you know the depth of me. I don't have simple needs, but the the the difference now is that I've realized that no one else can fulfill my needs, my need to keep learning. That's big, that's not a simple need. No, it's like read a book every week, not a simple need, but no one else can do that for me. So, how does that translate for me in a relationship? I need someone who would appreciate my need for time and space so that I wake up in the morning and I have that quiet and I could do my reading.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Yeah, that's yeah, that's that's that would be one of the things for me because you know, like we were talking earlier, I was out this morning, did some filming, first thing, you know, output five and out filming, that's important to me, you know, that time to do that. So I need to be able to do that without having to keep checking my watch. But that comes into communication as well. I yeah, I need I need my own space. Not a lot of to be fair, not a lot, but I in in my job as well as a tattooist, I I never know what time I'm gonna be finished. So understanding that I'm not a nine to five guy who's always gonna be home on time. Yeah, so I need my own space, I have my own friendship circles. I'm not I'm not a particularly jealous person at all either. Like I we had a um I had a chat the other day, didn't we? And I and it was fed back to me, oh you're quite a secure person, aren't you? And I was like, Yeah, I think I am, and then we had a chat, and you were like, not quite. And I'm like, okay, good point. But yeah, as far as like in relationships goes, I'm I'm not someone who's ever gonna be like, you can't go out dressed like that, you know. I I'm not that sort of thing, is not doesn't bother me. It's like wow, you look amazing, have the best night, you know, and I don't need to hear from you all night. I'm quite secure in that way.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Yeah, I've lost my train of thought again.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

That's all right, that's okay. Well, I've been going through some changes too, and that's a part of it, losing my train of thought. But yeah, I think I feel like when when we're healing the anxious attachment, and I've I've been asked about it this what are a few first steps that you want to do? The first thing you need to do is date yourself. You have to know who you are and what you want and be goddamn honest about it. Yeah, it's going to change. As long as you you realize this is who I am now, and this is not who I was five years ago or 10 years ago, you start to see that wait a second, I am going to change. And then you can appreciate where the other person's at. You'll know that you know, when they do something something five years from now, you're not saying or upset, thinking, oh, but this who wasn't who they were when we met. Sure, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Yeah, we all do change. Exactly, yeah. I mean, that that's a that's a when you said about what have I done, one of the things, yeah, I've lived on my own now for what, six months, completely, completely on my own. And that that's undoubtedly hard, you know. I didn't go out and start dating like straight away or anything like that. You know, not in the last not since I've been out and that, because there was another relationship after my ex-wife, and I'm talking about since that broke up, sort of thing. So I haven't dated, didn't turn to drink or drugs or anything like that. I there was part of me that just was just like, no, I am gonna go through it as a as a challenge to myself, as in like I want to be able to go, yeah, I did it, I went through it, I went through it myself without not without help. Obviously, we've spoken, and you know, I've done other forms of therapy, but I wanted to feel it because that's what what that's something that gets talked about. People don't feel it, they mask it, they go and distract and get into new relationships, do this and do that. And I was kind of adamant they're like, No, I'm gonna I'm gonna feel it. And it's horrible.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

What did it feel? What did it feel like? What did you go through? And while you were going through it, what did you what it what were you tempted to do?

SPEAKER_03 39:24

I mean it felt it it felt horrendous, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

The you just I mean, I lost a lot of weight, but anxiety was sort of through the roof because you're you're unlearning a future you thought you had, you know, because you're not just grieving relationships, you're grieving what you thought for years was gonna be. And it's like, I don't know what my future holds, and that was really scary. It's starting to feel more like, well, it can be anything, you know, and that's and that's that detachment. So it's not even just about relationships, it's about the direction you were going in, which in a way was carried, which had baggage of anxiety and anxious attachment. So actually, maybe my new path won't be like that because that doesn't have to come with me. Yeah, so that's I've done a lot of thinking about that. So and I still don't know what I'm gonna do exactly. You know, do I want to be doing my current job in 10 years' time? No. So I'm trying a few different things. I've got back into painting again, I'm getting out my camera more than I've done in a long time. Forcibly spending time on myself. I know a lot of people say, Oh, don't just sitting on your own, come out, make sure you surround yourself with people. And it's like, yeah, but that's still not sincere because you're still distracting yourself with doing that. You do have to at some point sit with the feelings, and and they're not very nice. I'm not gonna lie, it's it it it it can feel really bad at times, you know. I'm a hell of a lot better than I was, you know, I'm significantly better.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

You still have the moments, of course you do, but it's less, you know, it's more what what do these moments look like? If I'm if I'm in the if I'm a fly on the wall, what am I seeing as you're going through these moments?

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Tears, tears and just heavy, it's heavy. I'm lucky that like where I work with the girls I work with, we're all very open about sort of stuff. We have like a thing in the morning, someone comes in and not feeling great, we go to the kitchen, shut the door, and it's like, right, what's going on? We'll talk about it, get it all out, so then you're not carrying it all day. But it's still hard when you've when you've got clients in the chair and you've got you know, and your head's thinking about something, and and then when you leave, obviously you drop the mask and go home, and it's just heavy. But one thing, you know, I've definitely learned is you don't hold it in because it makes such a big difference. Once you've let it out, it is it's an emotional perch, and it's crazy that it's still seen within guys like as a sign of weakness, and it's like well, not really, we all do it, it's it's kind of like it needs to happen, it's biology, it needs to happen. That's why we cry. Yeah, so yeah, if you're a fly on the wall, you probably would have seen me as a quite late moment.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Okay, yeah. And if I was a fly on the wall, how do I see you getting out of it?

SPEAKER_01 42:28

You see me having structure and routine again. I think that's that's key. And I've always had this kind of mindset of like do it anyway, even if you're feeling bad. Because one day, I think it was is it a real care? It was a quote that's like, feel everything, the beauty and the terror, because no feeling is final. I really like that. And when I when you come out of this, which you will, do I want to be right back at the start? Or do I want to be further down the road and come out of it still a hit? And that's what I always try and do, is even if I'm you know not feeling it, do it anyway, because yeah, I don't want to hold myself back. And I guess that's where that's you get resilience. It's not free, is it?

SPEAKER_00 43:16

So no, it just comes from failing and failing and failing and failing. Yeah, yeah. And and knowing uh it's not the failing, it's knowing that you're gonna get up.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Every fall you're gonna get up, and so you become fearless at some point.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

What advice would you give first on how to approach healing for someone who's anxiously attached and feel like they haven't started on this road?

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Stay away from AI. Stay away from AI. Is it but seriously? I think there's a shame, there's definitely a like Of shame in like feeling anxiously attached, like you're a nervous little mouse or something. And it's like well, no, it's just it's just a state that you're in, and you can get out of it. It doesn't it doesn't it doesn't define you. That's the thing. I think some of these when we talk about attachment styles, that they become such strong labels. It's like that doesn't completely define you, it's just it's just a way of measuring how you may or may or not act in relationships and in your own life, and you can change that. It's not it's not I think there's a perception it's fixed. That's it, that's what you are, and that's it, you can't get out of it. No, I don't agree with that. Kind of own it a little bit and and be curious. I think be curious, not judgmental yourself. Be curious, not judgmental, as Ted Lasso says. And I think that applies to yourself. Yeah, so get curious as to what it is that's holding you back that's making you like you know, be prepared to dig deep and don't be afraid of it because you you you know, you once you start to understand, you can see the patterns and then you can you can make the changes. Talking to people like yourself massively helps. Yeah, don't be afraid of therapy. God, that that can be you know, it could be your best friend, but it's like anything, like we were saying, Jim for the mind. If you're going to a personal trainer and you want to get like athletic and tone, you're not gonna go to a guy who looks like a power lifter because it's he's gonna put you on the wrong program, it's not the right person. So it's the same with uh therapy. It's you know you still gotta find the right the right person to the right fit, yes. And I think don't be you know, if you've if you're going through a breakup don't be afraid to talk to a relationship coach because yeah, because I don't want to make the same mistakes again, and no one else should either. It's about it's about growth, right? It's not about putting people in boxes, it's about individual growth.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Yeah, finding your own manual.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah, yeah. And I think that you know therapy helps, but it's still the onus is still on you to to make it work. And yeah, it's been interesting.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah, I f I find with therapy, funny enough, I had my therapy session just before you and I started this. With therapy, the there's still many therapists who don't give tools for whatever the reasons are, and your session might be 45 minutes or an hour, and that's great. It's a time to share and have you know someone else's perspective, or they may ask you questions to help you deep, uh dig deeper, questions that you don't think of on your own, not something AI will be able to do for you. I mean, I've been in therapy for about seven years now, so yeah, seven a seven-year relationship twice a week kind of thing. So it's someone who knows me a lot more. But the thing is, you need to do the work when you're out of the office, and that's what a lot of people don't get. So, two things that I found with therapists and therapy. One, it takes a while to find the therapist for you. It's like dating, you don't go out on the first date and decide I'm gonna get married, because it's a relationship, you're signing up to share with this person. Yeah, not maybe a third thing. The other thing is people don't ask their therapist questions. You are going to be sharing your entire life with this person. You get to ask them questions. Questions like, Why do you do what you do? Have you ever dealt in a with a case like this before? And what were the results?

SPEAKER_01 47:55

That's a great point. I don't think I've ever asked the therapist the question.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Yeah, why do you do what you do? It's it's something right.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

We're gonna stop right now. I'm gonna interview you right now.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Take some notes. Yeah. Have you dealt in a case like this before? I remember when Larry and I went to therapy. We we I did ask, have you dealt with interracial couples before and the religion that we were in?

SPEAKER_04 48:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

So those are big questions because you want to know that this person will have the know-how of moving you from where you are to where you want to be. Talk about what their program looks like, a timeline, what is it they're expecting of you? That's a question. It's an interview. You're interviewing someone for your life, just like you would with a date, which we don't do. And then you have to have to have to do the work when you get out of therapy. When you get out of that hour session, you now have to stick with it, you know, replay what was said in therapy session, allow your brain to marinate that information, it will come up with perspectives. You want to take this a little further? Add meditation to it.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

Yeah, that's a powerful yeah, yeah. I'm gonna show you something.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Oh, you've got the photo. Well, our audience doesn't know what that's about. Do you want to share?

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Okay, so I was tasked with putting a photo of myself when I was a child on my phone as my as my screensaver, as my like younger self as part of uh a task that you set me to like always look at the younger self and how would you talk to your younger self and to remind yourself when you're in these situations, what would you be telling them in a nutshell?

SPEAKER_00 49:41

That's what I was like. It's it's also it's been great for the reason I share this with uh clients and anyone who will really listen, is because when I was learning to love myself, and and I think in the psychology world they call it reparenting or inner child healing, that kind of language. When I was learning to love myself and give myself what I was hoping other people would give love, affection, attention, the yes, the okay to do something. I found a picture of younger me and placed it as my screensaver. And I would look at her and I'd ask, Do you want to do this? What do you want? Right. And I would close my eyes and listen. What would the younger version of me say?

SPEAKER_04 50:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

And then I started to do it with people. This person wants to hang out with you. How do you feel? And there were times when I could hear younger versions say, No, that person's mean. Now, the task really was to honor what that younger version said.

SPEAKER_04 50:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

And that's where I started to develop boundary setting.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Yeah. Yeah. I remember boundary settings.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

So if I could say no to someone and honor my feelings automatically, what has happened and what happens now is if it doesn't feel good, I'm not doing it. If it's a conversation, it doesn't feel good. I know I can't do it right now, but I've got to come back to it. So I ask for time and space.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

So it's really helped me. Yeah, having that younger version. And eventually when you get to that point, you could get rid of the younger version because you say, you know what, I've healed you, little girl. I'm good. There's no need to keep going back to you. Now it's time to look at the older version of me and ask, what would that person say?

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Yeah, yeah. I I'll be honest, it's like I I found it uncomfortable. I don't know exactly why, but when I see that photo of myself, it makes me feel uncomfortable. I'm curious about that. Yeah, because I mean I it might be guilt because it I used to have my dog on there, and then it's uh a case of like replacing my dog with a little picture of myself, but I don't I don't think it's that's even more painful.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Are you saying that for some reason the dog had more value than you?

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Quite possibly. I mean, it's a dog we could we could go deep on that, but yeah, yeah, taking him off the screen to put a picture of myself on that was the main reason I didn't do it for a long time. And then when we had our last session, then I was like, Oh, I haven't done it, I still haven't done it. Why I'm gonna do it right now.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

But that is so interesting because I mean it really shows how we put ourselves on the value list or priority list.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

People do it with their kids, and that's okay. I mean, my thing is yes, you find your manual, right? You you look at your priority list, you look at we talked about the boundary uh pyramid, you set yourself where wherever you you see you, your health, your your peace of mind, your job, your family, friends, you have to set what's most important to you. But I strongly believe that you have to be the most important person, you have to be number one priority because without your health, happiness, and feeling confident and good about yourself, you can't give to anyone.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

No, that's definitely something I struggled with. Yeah, put myself first. Yeah, that's uh that has been.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

I'm sorry it was a struggle to swap out your puppy picture for your own.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

It's not that bad.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

It was it was just a little bit like it's it's it's where I'm sitting, it's pretty bad. Okay, I mean to feel guilt, I understand it's like a little bit of sadness, but to feel guilt, oof.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

It might it might be because he doesn't live with me, so I didn't see him that often. Well, but I do see him fairly often, but um, so it could be something like that.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

Well, like in relationships, we need to know that a picture does not bring the person closer, they're still there. The person is still there, the the puppy still there, and that's the thing that we struggle with with anxious attachment. If we're not constantly hearing from a partner, then they're no longer there. If they disappear for two months, like where are they?

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

These are not the things that share shows how much you love another being, a photograph, a text message, a call. Yeah, not no, and and really the photograph that you're using right now, it's just to teach you to put you first and love you and honor you.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Yeah, yeah. And I I am I am getting I'm getting there. I've I think you know I guess it was quite good in a way that we've had quite a gap between the last session on this before. So I've got to think I I've made progress. Well, I know I've made progress because I'm I'm here and in this place, and you know, I'm moving forward and things uh things are happening.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

So yeah, and we really don't know how we've healed until we're met with a challenge, kind of like you're going to the gym and you're lifting weights. You don't know how strong you are until you lift something stronger than you used to, right? Yeah, so that's how you know, and and you'll be surprised, you know, you'll deal with things differently, and you'd be like, Oh my gosh, I didn't, I know I wouldn't have handled it this way.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Yeah, I mean, I noticed um how was it uh recently I reversed my van into someone, and normally that would have been a like uh proper like tirade of you know beating myself up over it, and I was just pretty calm about it. I was just like, oh well, even though and I was like, hmm, that was interesting. I didn't react to I normally react, I just kind of go on with it and haven't sweared the small stuff as much.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Yeah, I would say yeah, I am very happy for you. I know what it like it feels like to heal to this degree, and oh, it's good, it's good, so I'm happy for you.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Oh yeah, and you know, I I I really appreciate your input and especially you know actually inviting me on the call as well because I was kind of like, oh, okay, what me?

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Of course you value. All right, we've got to work on your value, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Yes, yeah, absolutely. But it's gonna help you.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

And I'm sure this is going to this is going to help someone because you know there are a lot of people out there who don't like feeling alone in this. We're we're all struggling, and I feel like by sharing our stories and our struggles and how we're managing life and everything that comes with it gives hope.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

Yeah, we're not told that these feelings that you have after breakups, you know, regardless of your attachment style or anything, it's normal. It's not you you're not alone because you you do you question you question yourself late at night when you're ruminating and just just sort of in your own head over things. You question whether it's normal, and you've got no one to really bounce it off. So, yeah, you need to hear other people's experiences, you need to hear it like this, yeah, war and honest, because I'm I I really hope it does resonate with someone that there's someone out there who's feeling the same, and it's just like, yeah, you know, you can get there and it's normal. Feeling like this, feeling those moments where you just can't stop thinking about a person because of a breakup, and and when you're in you know, that rumination loop, and you just don't feel like doing anything. Some you know, your friends are asking you to come out, you don't feel like starting a new hobby, you don't feel like getting up to do it. That's normal, that's not unusual, but it does pass, and it's like there's loads of stuff out there about like you know, motivation comes after action and all that. It's just true, it's like you're not just gonna find the motivation. I mean, I've just started doing coal plunges as well. Now, everyone had been everyone's talking about coal plunges, it's like you know, it's an it's this wonderful thing, and I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds like a load of something to me. But I have started doing it, and yeah, in those moments it does. And I found that those days where I am feeling anxious or just down, you know, everything's on top of it. When I do go to the gym, the gym I find I find that doesn't help me. There's this perception that going to the gym helps everyone.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

No, it's it generally helps the avoidant attached. Yeah, it's I find I find through my work and research it doesn't help the anxious attached because that's where they think the most. And they're like, No, why am I doing this? I need to get out of here.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

I don't exactly and it's it's talking about things like that that helps as well, because there'll be these anxious attached people out there going to the gym because everyone's saying, Oh, get to the gym, I'll help you. Going there, this isn't helping in those those moments in between the sets, and you're sat there thinking, you're in your own head. And um, but yeah, what does help I find is the cold plunge because when you're in that water, there is nothing you can think about as it's cold, it's cold, it's cold, it's cold, it's cold. Oh, I can't feel my feet, I can't feel my feet. Oh my god, oh my god, how long, how long for a minute? Uh and you get out, and yes, that physical state, it really has almost like shocked you out of it a little bit. And I have found that that has really helped, and it does immediately change your your state of mind that you got no choice because it's so is such a drastic change. Um, I wouldn't say I enjoy it because it's cold, but I like the feeling afterwards, that instant change from how I was feeling before it's coming out.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

Yeah, so let me just put a really quick disclaimer here that this okay, this method, this method, this cold plunge method, if you're thinking of trying it, you've got to check with your doctor. This is not us saying that this is a thing you have to try. No, I mean with fair enough, with this internet and social media.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

I oh my god, and also I know is that you gotta drop out, and particularly with women, I believe it it's not always as good an idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Yeah, that's what I've actually noticed online recently. There's a lot of research that says that women should not be doing them. Well, I mean, there's I'm not worried, I don't do anything cold. Yeah, so I'm not it's like sure you guys could knock yourself out.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

Well, to be fair, the my experience of pretty much all women they don't like the cold. So it's just my experience. And um, so I don't think there's any there's any danger. Most women probably listening and going, yeah, it's not for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

You can keep that one. You guys can keep that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

And there's scientific proof that says we don't handle cold the way men do. We're just not built that way. But yeah, anywho, thank you so much for this. I really, really appreciate it. I will see the next time I I need one, or I feel like there's something about you that if someone reaches out, they generally do and ask, Oh, that person that you had there, and they talked about this. Can you have them come back and elaborate more?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:59

Yeah, happy to.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Great. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

My pleasure. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Bye.