What to Expect When Anxious and Fearful Avoidant Start to Heal

If you ever thought healing your attachment was impossible - here are two other people who were able to do it. 

Today I did something I never did before - I had a discussion with who I have witnessed working on healing their attachment styles. 

This episode gives you three certified coaches walking you through what healing looks like, our experiences in our past and current relationships, how attachment styles shows up and how we all react differently to triggers from a secure space. 

We are excited to teach you everything we know. 

Leave a review and let us know what you think. Share this with your friends and don't forget to subscribe. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

All right. Welcome to your next episode of Decoding Attachment Styles. Surprise, surprise, I am not Annalisa. My name is Marta, and I have decided to team up with Annalisa to support her in her wonderful work of figuring out what it is that people are doing in relationships. And I have tagged a great friend of mine, Duncan, to join us as well. So I'll allow Duncan to introduce himself.

SPEAKER_05 0:34

Hi, I'm uh I'm Duncan, and I'm going to be joining Lisa and Marta on this podcast as we decode attachment styles or at least it's into. So let's go.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Perfect. So I myself am a fearful avoidant on a journey to becoming secure. I'm pretty sure I'm like 99.9% there, depending on a day. How about you, Duncan? What is your attachment style?

SPEAKER_05 1:00

I'm anxiously attached. Getting healed, getting more secure. And I guess that's what we're going to be discussing today is how we actually achieve that, or at least attempt to.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

And if I may jump in now, hi guys, for those of you who've been following me for a while on Decoding Attachment Style, you already know who I am. I've decided to bring in these two lovely people who I've worked with and who I can attest to have become really way more secure than they first started out. They've done work on themselves prior to working with me. So yes, they are secure, securely attached enough and have enough tools to help you work on your attachment style. They'll do exactly what I've been doing, pass on the tools and strategies that I use in my practice to help you guys as well. But we've decided to do this first podcast together as an introduction so you have a better idea of where they're coming from and what they can offer you. And they'll share a little bit about their journey. So thank you for joining. If you haven't yet done so, please subscribe and don't forget to share this with your friends. Attachment theory has really popped off. People really want to understand themselves. And the podcast is number 26 on attachment theory, the top 26. So yeah, it seemed like you know it's it's been helpful to people. So you want to get on that bandwagon and get your pen, your paper out, jot down notes, because that that's one fast way of uh fast tracking your your healing process. So I'm going to start with Duncan. Duncan, you mentioned that you you were more anxious attached, you've been working on your healing more securely attached, which is very similar to my journey. So I started off as an anxiously attached person and now uh being secure. I think one of the questions people ask is do you lose your sense of care community when you've healed? Because there's this fear that when I heal, I'm not gonna care. When I heal, I'm just gonna become numb. And it's it's a scary thing. Have you experienced that?

SPEAKER_05 3:16

No. Short answer, no, no, not at all. So I'm I'm still, yeah, I still have the same kind of emotional range there of like caring and etc. And my brain's gone off attention now immediately. Yeah, I haven't lost that sense at all. Not at all. I I I can appreciate why that might be a fear 100% that you would go numb and just become vacant almost, but but no, not at all. It's more about recognizing where you put that attention, where you put that care, and how much of it you give and who you give it to, and what circumstances, and you know, be a bit more precious about who you're giving it to and think about it.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Can I add on to that a little bit? I think in in regards to care, it's also about not forgetting to give that care to yourself, right? And that's a big one, and I think that's a big one with both fearful avoidance and anxiously attached.

SPEAKER_05 4:21

We tend to that's the one we forget about.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Yeah, yeah. We tend to leave ourselves behind and and put our partner first, or or we think we are, but at the end of the day, we're actually not putting them first by putting them ahead of us, because now we can't deliver on the level that we want to deliver, and that's not what our partners want from us, really.

SPEAKER_05 4:42

No, because then you're just in the realms of people pleasing again.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Now I'm gonna be devil's advocate here with you, Marta, because somebody listening to that and they just heard you say that you're fearful avoidant, or you come from that attachment style, they're gonna say, Well, fearful avoidance are generally selfish, so it just sounds selfish. How would you address that? Yeah, how would you address that?

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Well, I mean, first of all, you guys know me well enough to know that is beyond not true.

SPEAKER_05 5:09

It's not true, I can confirm.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Thank you. Uh, I did not pay him to say that. Although that care package is going across the ocean one day. No, I I think it's just we're so scared to lose ourselves and our relationships that we're trying to hold on to to that little seed of ourselves, that little, that little heart that's there. And and we're scared that if if I do X, Y, Z, then I will just disappear, right? That let's say my partner's family just will eat me alive, not physically, obviously, but then I'll just be assimilated, disappear, and and me as a person will no longer be there, which is again not true. So then we try to defend that little bit of autonomy that we have, right? And and sometimes it can come across as selfish, but that is literally coming from a place of I am so petrified that if I don't protect little space, I'll disappear and I'll be gone as the person that I am. Like I will simply cease to exist as I am.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Follow-up question to that. What has changed for you as you healed?

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Well, I haven't disappeared. So I haven't ceased to exist. I feel like I am better. I'm not in a relationship right now, but I feel like I would be a much better partner now, understanding where I'm coming from or and where those triggers are coming from. I'm no longer scared of somebody else's family. I look forward to that becoming part of that family, right? Without disappearing and kind of having boundaries, because I think for me personally, setting boundaries is beyond difficult. It still is work in progress. It has always been difficult. I think the only people that I was pretty good at that was my my close family, right? My siblings, my parents. But again, like I have decades of practice with that. But when it comes to partnerships and new people coming into my life, that people pleasing kicks in, and you feel like if if you set boundaries, then you're not fully available and you're not your best self. So learning to set boundaries and realizing that this is the best way I can offer them to be part of said new family or relationship, it really has transformed my life in regards to my professional life, because I can stand up for myself better without being defensive, but just being straightforward. And I do believe that's how I will be able to present in the future relationships as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Okay. Duncan, you on boundaries. We've had we we know we know that.

SPEAKER_05 7:59

Boundaries. Can you spell it for me? I'll Google it for you.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Let me Google it for you real quick. Yeah, for you and me both know.

SPEAKER_05 8:08

Yeah, I well, that's that is one of the things that overlaps, isn't it? Is uh is the common theme there. Yeah, I've always been historically bad with boundaries. With with we keep, you know, it's a buzzword people pleasing, but it's true. You know, it becomes from that place of wanting to be liked, and if you are not useful, if you can't, if you don't serve a purpose, then well, good of you to that person. It's that it's that core fit. What I I guess I I recognize it more in like friendships and work relationships now, where I don't just jump to attention and make sure everything's done and everyone's happy because you know, and avoid the difficult conversations, avoid the conflict. Now it's a case of I'll kind of stop a little bit and go, Do I need to do that? Because they're more than capable of doing that, and that's just gonna annoy me. And then I'm gonna build resentment, and that's what happens. Resentment builds because it goes back to like taking care of yourself and putting your putting your needs first, not well, putting your needs as uh some sort of priority, says the anxiously attached man. Um yeah, so it's it's catching I find a catch myself and before I wouldn't have I'd have just gone on autopilot and done these things, and and then you anxiety would build because you you they you're also then waiting for almost the acknowledgement that you did a good thing, and yeah, and now I I recognize that's not how I'm supposed to act, whether people like me or not, is not dependent on whether I serve a particular purpose, especially if it doesn't serve me.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

You remember that that moment when the switch went off, and you're like, I can't do this anymore. I've got to learn how to set boundaries.

SPEAKER_05 10:03

Almost. I could I can't remember a specific moment, but I know it happened probably probably at the start of this year, I would say. There was the I just recognize a difference in in the boundary setting, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Can you share a little bit about that without naming names?

SPEAKER_05 10:23

No. Um, I I think it really is, it's more to do with I recognized it more on my day-to-day at work. That's where it started, that's where I started to set those boundaries. Because I know historically that has caused me problems with work relationships, and that had been a big source of anxiety for me. So, yeah, although you know we we are predominantly focusing on romantic relationships. I think if if someone's having the trouble setting boundaries in romantic relationships, then it might be a bit easier to start thinking about it in your other relationships where it's not so outcome-dependent, not so not so critical as it would be in your romantic relationship at home. If you can start doing these things in other areas of your life, where it's perhaps with your family, with an overbearing parent who's just wants to call or call call all the time, and previously you just answer the phone, you just answer the phone. Now you you know you you might say, Yeah, I can't talk right now, I'll give you a call after work. That kind of thing, get into the practice that way to then do the harder stuff where it's your actual romantic partner.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Well, I mean, I also like to remind us that uh attachment style doesn't switch on and off. You know, you are it depends. Whoever disrespects you, you are going to be triggered. It doesn't necessarily have to be a romantic partner, so you can't set boundaries in one area of your life and expect the other areas to thrive. You you you only know how to be one individual in all circumstances, and that one individual can have different personalities, different personality traits. But the the anxious attachment doesn't switch on and off. It is when we are triggered in any particular situation, we are going to either be active or reactive.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

So it doesn't, yeah, when I'm working with clients, if they come into me and they're like, oh, well, you know, we're no longer together or we are together and I don't know how to set boundaries. The first place you've got to do the boundary pyramid, which we'll talk about in another podcast. But it's the boundary pyramid where you set your priorities and you start to protect those based on how you feel. And in your boundary pyramid, you've got work there. You've got family, you've got friends, everybody. You've got to set boundaries with everyone because you're protecting a feeling within you. And that feeling can be triggered anywhere.

unknown 13:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

And you know, it's such a beautiful feeling in a way. It's it's kind of silly to say that, but obviously, as we're learning more and more, it's I came to realize that I did used to set boundaries, but it was very much in a reactive way. It wasn't like, hey, I'm gonna like build my little fence and be ready for the attack, whatever. No, it was like, holy smokes, this is happening, and I have allowed it to get to this point, right? I have allowed people to come and take and take and take. And then I hit a wall and I'm like, well, we're it's done. Here's the hard boundary and stuff like that. And and unfortunately, that's a bit of a just being up front. That's kind of, I feel how I've been with my family a lot, unfortunately. So that's something I need to still work on and maybe soften some of the boundaries, right? But I remember one particular event in my personal life, because with having difficulty setting boundaries comes difficulty of saying no, right? The inability of saying no to people. That's how I end up working overtime, that's how I end up doing things that I don't want to be doing. I'm doing 10 different things on a weekend that I'm not even interested in doing. And so I was in a relationship, and this person asked me something, and I just said, No, I'm not gonna do that. Whatever it was, I can't remember what it was. It was that was inconsequential. And that person was like, Well, darn, you like keep saying no, and I just kind of started crying, like, not I just kind of came out of me and I was like, You don't realize how much it took for me to say no, and how actually special it feels to feel comfortable with you to be able to say that. To me, that was like such a it sounds ridiculous, but it was such a wholesome experience because I felt comfortable with that person to say no to them. And he wasn't angry, like he we talked about it, right? And kind of had a little chat, but he wasn't angry that I said no. I was allowed to say no, obviously, and it worked out just fine in in that regard.

SPEAKER_05 15:23

Yeah, saying no, saying no is hard. It isn't it? It's just it's it's like just listening to you say that. I'm like, yeah, squirming a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Yeah, you expect, I don't know, the lightning to come at you from the sky and just like fly you on the spot, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Well, because no got us in trouble when we were kids, we weren't allowed to say no, and so now we're afraid that if we say no, people are not gonna like us. Well, not only that, but I think we expect everyone to abandon us, right? Well, that's the not like from the childhood, yeah. Like, oh, you you don't you're saying no? That is so selfish, you're so mean.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

That's those are sharing your toys, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah, yeah, you're not sharing, you said no to it, and yeah, now you know we become adults and we're trying to sort through that boundary with self to say no, that's the hardest thing, and it is the reason, and we know this on a subconscious level, we know it is difficult. That is why many of us would rather spend our time, our effort, and energy trying to change our partner or trying to change someone else than learning how to say no, because we know that is the difficult part. I don't have to say no if my partner can just do what he what I want him to do, then I don't have to say no. I don't have to say I'm I'm not tolerating this, I'm leaving, because the leaving part is hard.

SPEAKER_05 16:52

Yeah, right. No, no, no, they might see the volume.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

We're good.

SPEAKER_05 17:06

Cool. Yeah, it's I'm just getting like crackling this end. So as long as it's not on the feed, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Oh no, we're good. We're good, we're fine. Yeah, what were you afraid that would happen? I mean, in in specific circumstances, or I think what I'm what I'm going back to is you said, Marta, you said it was such a relief to feel that safety and say to that person no, right? And then be received with what you grew up not expecting.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

What what does that feel like? Where where did that come from?

SPEAKER_03 17:47

It felt awesome. Like I legitimately remembered the whole thing, right? Because we were at a cabin and and I just kind of because I am a fearful avoidant after like the whole I said no, he said, Well, you keep saying no, and I was like, Well, reenactment. I then stepped outside, right? Because again, avoidant. I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna go outside for a minute, get some fresh air. And I just kind of sat there and cried. And he actually came outside and sat with me. I'm not gonna cry, I'm not gonna cry, I'm not gonna cry. Uh and it just uh, you know, the whole being like being seen, heard, and understood, right? He didn't have to say anything, just him actually coming out and sitting next to me, that is all I needed. That is all I needed, and it felt like it felt like home.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

You know mic drop.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

I think I think we just actually saw your your your ability to shut off an emotion and focus on what needs to be focused on in real life. Did you see that, Duncan? She just went with not gonna cry, I'm not gonna cry, I'm not gonna cry, and then went back into action. I I think it's a superpower.

SPEAKER_05 19:06

Absolute pro.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

I think it's a superpower. I think it's like there's certain things as human beings that we've mastered that could be really helpful. And then, like you just said, I'm gonna cry after. Set aside the time for the emotions, but right now it's not for it.

SPEAKER_03 19:22

I'm because it's with my background too, right? I mean, working medical field, I can't, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:29

Yeah, that's definitely one of the things that that I find hard as well, is that whole, you know, not now, later, you know, because emotions they come up in me. I'm quite an emotional guy, and it comes up, and I find that very hard, especially with like the thought loops of elimination and everything.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

But I was actually going to ask, right? Because I've interacted with a good chunk of anxious attached individuals, and it seems that the shutting off because for me, I can obviously I'm still thinking about the story that I just told you and about the person that was a part of it. It's literally in the back of like I can feel that thought in the back of my head, but it's I'm focusing on what I'm doing right now. Whereas I feel like with the anxiously attached individuals, not that there's no ability, but that thought just takes over.

SPEAKER_05 20:17

Does you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 20:19

So yeah, so how have you navigated that or have you? Or how do you like chop it up and to put it up away for later?

SPEAKER_05 20:30

What is the thing is you chuck ADHD in the mix as well, and I see that it's it's like on steroids, it's yeah, it's it's it's it's a real thing. I guess I I mean, I guess my job allows me to you know, being a tattoo artist by trade, you kind of focused on something, and yeah, it might not come out physically, it might not physically show that emotion, but it's it's there, but I can kind of get away with that to a degree. Which isn't always I don't think it's always helpful because it's allowed me, it's allowed that pattern to continue. If I was in a different like a different role where I am customer facing or person facing, can't do that. You know, you you you have like like you said, in your profession as a nurse, you know, you you have to, you can't. So it's it's practice, isn't it? It's it's it is practice and recognition of the patterns.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Yeah, it's having to write tools, it's really having to write tools. I mean, that was not my profession. I was a journalist, I was allowed to show emotions, right? Yeah, but it's and it wasn't like I I it wasn't uh you know, it's it's really funny. I'll I'll just uh sidetrack for a second. Someone wrote me a letter a few years ago on Facebook. They sent me a message and they said, I don't know if you remember me, but I remember when you were co hosting the morning show, I went into the the restroom. And you were there and you were crying. And you said, I asked you if you were okay. And you said, I'm not right now, but I will be. And those, those, the sentence, it took her, you know, whatever I said took her 30 years. And that's what she wanted to share with me. So I was allowed to have those emotions. And then you have to say, okay, I can't handle this right now. But it greatly affected me, even on that morning show, because I remember having phone calls after, and people asked, Are you okay? You didn't seem like yourself. Now, the tools that I had to use as I was working on healing my attachment style is to set aside time for grief. Those are emotions. And those of you who know the work that I've been doing, I know Marta and Duncan, you know, I create these little human-like images in my head of what my emotions look like. And recently we've had this movie Inside Out was very similar, right? And so, you know, sometimes there's sadness, and I could quickly conjure, and I am a creative person, I quickly conjure what sadness looks like. And I'll say to her, like, I get it, I get it, this sucks. Let's deal with this a little later. And set aside time, like really put into my calendar Annalisa's time, and then sit with it and go back to it. Okay, what were we feeling? Why were we feeling this? What can we learn from this? How can we move forward? But if you don't set aside that time, that emotion is going to keep pounding at you and you ignore it, it's going to show up in other areas of your life. You're going to be upset with the barista at the cafe, with a family member. Take it out on your partner, take it out on your ex you're hoping to get back with, right? So it is important to set aside, and I've said this many times, if we could take the strengths of a person who's got an avoidant attachment style and the anxious attachment, that is actually what a secure attached person is, right? Vulnerability and capacity for intimacy and independence and autonomy. You need both of them to be feeling like a fulfilled, secure within yourself human being.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

You know, it is funny. I think I I know I've mentioned this to you before, Annalisa. Now that I'm, you know, mostly healed. It's funny. I sometimes do miss my avoidant abilities, right? When I because I mean, yeah, I don't mind feeling things. I'm a feeling human being. I I am a fearful avoidant. I feel things very deeply. But at times I was able to kind of like, okay, not right now, shut it down. Whereas now being more secure, I don't have as strong of an ability to avoid things. Like I can still, you know, obviously, like priorities in life, right? Work this and that. But like sometimes I'm like, oh man, wouldn't it be nice to be like just be able to shut it down and not feel like crap right now, right?

SPEAKER_05 25:11

That's one of the things that the anxiously attached are quite jealous of is that you guys can just shut down. No. Miss Larry, you guys can do that? Wait, what?

SPEAKER_03 25:23

It usually comes at a price, though. It usually comes at a price.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

If if I could share something, I it's not something I talk about very often because it gets very complicated. When Larry and I broke up the second time, I I don't know what happened where, but I started to slip into becoming a fearful avoidant. Now, I thanked the heavens that I knew what I was dealing with because I would see these emotions and I'll just shut them aside. I'll distract myself with work. And the more I distracted myself with work and loved work, the more my body wanted to just go towards that when things got tough. And I started to recognize it. And I remember, even though we broke up, for him, he never wanted to leave. I was the one who said, okay, this is not going to happen to me again. If we get back together, no way in hell is he going to take me for granted and think you could just get up and leave. Because if you get up and leave, you're not coming back. So I'm working on my healing, right? About four months in, we met at a cafe and we're talking, we're having a great time. And I hugged him and I said, I love you. And I felt my entire body freeze up. And I thought, oh my God, does he think I'm committed? Because I haven't decided I'm committed. Does he have expectations? And I started to freak out on the inside. And he goes his way. I get into a cab and I call him and I'm crying. And I said, Hey, I know I said I love you, but please don't read too much into it. Now, because he comes from that fearful, avoidant background, he's like, babe, it's okay. Don't worry about it. Relax. You're not obligated to anything. So, and I relaxed there, but I knew what was got uh what was happening and monitoring it. And I allowed myself, just stay with this for a while until you level out. And it was when pushing through all of that, it's like, okay, I don't want to say I love you, but I'm feeling it and it's fear controlling me. So now I'm gonna do the thing that I'm afraid of doing. I'm gonna prove that by showing pushing through to fear, I'm gonna be okay. That's how I became securely attached. Yeah, because that vulnerability part, showing vulnerability is anxiously attached. Fearful, avoidance, don't share it, don't open up to vulnerability because they're afraid of losing control, which is I was kind of stuck between both of them. And in order to heal, you have to look at the thing that you're afraid of and say, No, I'm going to do the thing, and eventually you see that doing the thing does not hurt you, and that's when you start to feel safe and secure. So, Marta, I've been in your skin and it is not comfortable.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

No, that is this why I'm sweating right now, because uh, yeah, that would explain a few things, but it's funny you should um say that because I not anyone's sweating, but it's because it's 35, 36 degrees here. We don't know what that means in that on, but it's in the 90s, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 28:34

Yeah, yeah, you guys see the fair.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Oh, nobody knows Duncan's in the I'll I'll translate. Being Canadian, I'll translate since I speak both. But I just recently made a new friend, and we're sending each other voice notes.

SPEAKER_05 28:48

And you're talking about me now.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

No, no, no. I mean, you're bombarded with voice notes, okay? No, it's a it's a she, but I was telling her a story and I was like, and I recorded, I'm like, you know what? I am going to practice being vulnerable. So I will tell you the story that I mentioned that I didn't tell you yesterday. And and so both of us, without naming names, she decided she was like, you know what, I'm gonna practice that too. And so we're practicing being vulnerable with each other, and we'll see how it goes, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's all weird because I'm like, this feels strange. But yeah, I I have my my ex to thank for kind of facing my fears because he kind of called me out one time when like you're living out of place of fear, and and he wasn't referring to emotionally, I think he was talking about life in general, but I took that to heart and started like reassessing not just my physical world, but also like my inner world and and how I make those decisions. And and I have my reasons for making them the way I did up to that point, being a what I call a double immigrant and all that. But I was like, oh, yeah, okay, shoot. I don't like that. Because the one thing I know is I do kick ass and I am resilient, and he knows that too. And those were the things that that brought us together, right? So I'm like, I do want to go back to kicking ass and being resilient. And and do I still have my days when I'm like, I don't want to get up. Yeah, I do, but I'm like, nah, ain't nobody coming to save you. So come on, let's do it, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Yeah, that's that's the part I wish the anxious attach would have. The part where it's like, nobody's coming to save you, get up and do it. And and it's really about the balance, right? It's I mean, Duncan, you know this, you've got to incorporate or you've got to be a little like the avoidant, but not have that fear drive you.

SPEAKER_05 30:53

So that yeah, I I mean, I've been called out on that before about letting fear take the wheel. Definitely something worked on. Definitely something that worked on. I you know, I've had my moments over the last eight, nine months, probably longer than that. Where it's very very easy to feel sorry for yourself and very easy to go down the the worries me victim mindset, you know, you allow the anxious attachments style to just take over and take the wheel. But I've always had this mantra, I think we might have spoken about this before of like when you come out of the other side, when you sort of suffer from depression and anything like that, we're getting off topic a little bit. But I think it's still relevant, is that it will pass, you know. Like no feeling is final, so it will pass, but I don't want to be right back at the start when I come out the other side. So that's one of the things that keeps me motivated, is that like just keep going, keep showing up, keep pushing through, keep pushing through. Because when it all clears away, you're gonna be right where you want it to be. If you just give in and just let it consume you, it will pass, but you're right back at the start, and you've wasted a whole bunch of time. And that to me is quite a powerful stick to beat myself with, and I think it can be relevant to anything, like you know, when we talk about like breakups and exes potentially coming back one day, that kind of thing. If you're right back at the start, well you're nothing's changed, nothing has changed, and you're not really good for anyone, not a new partner, not an ex, not for anyone.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Right, but at that point the outcome would be the same too, right?

SPEAKER_05 32:41

If if we have they haven't changed, yeah, and like my my ex-wife was telling me a couple of months ago when she started dating, and she made a comment about like what is it with all middle-aged men and that just being sad and depressed and talking about their exes all the time, and I'm like, Oh apparently, one guy fried on the date.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

So well, that's a red flag.

SPEAKER_05 33:10

Yeah, well, that's what I said. I said, I think that's he's telling you he's not ready for this.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Yeah, pat him on the head and maybe he doesn't know that that's what he's saying, but that's what we need to know. Instead of us, like especially anxious attached. I if I had heard that as an anxious attached person and went out on a date and I heard something like that, I'd be like, Oh, I could fix this, I could make it all better. That person was so mean to you. I could I could be better, I could prove that you know you're you just you're yeah, it's a project, and now it's like, okay, if you just broke up with somebody, you need time to get over them. You need you need at least, I'll give you a nice one year. Six months with massive effort, massive work. And that's you know, that's that's something that that Larry and I went through. We we got out of, we had just gotten out of relationships. Just gotten out of relationships. The thing is, we both knew that we should not be dating each other.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

So am I the only one who wants to bring Larry in as a guest as well?

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Oh, we're bringing in.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

We're working on it.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

We we are we're working on it. He just doesn't know what he's done. He's he just doesn't know it yet. No, and then he's like, he's he said, said, but I'm not a public figure. I'm like, are you kidding? You're in recording studios for your songs right now. You're pretty public. But yeah, at some at some point it would be lovely to have him on the podcast because you know, sometimes he does stuff like showing vulnerability a lot. So you know, like I'm still I I talked to my therapist about this. I'm like, I'm still amazed, I'm amazed, and I I say to him, I'm like, you're my proof that fearful avoidant can heal. You're my absolute proof because I see it all the time.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Aw, that's so sweet. It's a unicorn. No, I'm kidding. Not a unicorn, it's we can all do it. Yes, we can all be unicorns.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Everybody can, yeah, yeah, we can, we can, and I think it just starts with starts with being curious, doesn't it? Start with being curious about yourself and tired, and sick, and you've got to be sick and tired of feeling helpless, of of waiting for other people to to show up for you, to be consistent. You've got to be goddamn sick and tired. And and I think that's one of the biggest problems with going right back to boundaries until you're sick and tired of being treated that way, you can't say no. You can't look at people and say, F no, you don't get to treat me that way. And that's what shocks people into realizing, oh crap, if I don't show up for this person as they need, I'm gonna lose all the benefits that come with them.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

F no is my favorite two words right now.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Well, and hopefully, you know, you can address it before you even get to the point where you have to say that, right? Because you have your boundaries, you have your standards, you have your, and I truly believe that most people, most partners do want to show up for us the right way. It's interesting. I was chatting with someone the other day about how that person was loving their ex, but they were loving them in a way they want to be loved, right? So this is kind of crossing into like the love languages and whatnot. And and this person was saying, like, well, that's what I want. So that's what I gave her. And I'm like, but is this what she wanted or needed, right? Because, and and you know, I I don't think because a lot of people will, well, then you're not compatible. I'm like, no, no, there's like it's a jigsaw puzzle, right? There's like, let's say there's like the big toddler ones, there's five pieces, you just have to make them fit properly. That that is all. You might have to turn a piece around where physical touch is important to me, but it's not number one, it's number three, right? And so just kind of making sure that you give what they want to receive, and you receive what you need as well, right? So being able to communicate what it is that you need versus like, oh, they're giving me this, I'll just take it because they're giving it to me. Like, I didn't order apples, I wanted oranges, so excuse me, but could you give me oranges, right? Just learning to communicate that this is not what you need to make your fruit salad. This is because you already have apples, but you're missing oranges, right? And so many of us are scared to actually voice what we need. And then the fruit salad just turns into a potato salad, and that's not what I wanted. There you go. I'm a foodie.

SPEAKER_05 37:50

I've always found it hard to communicate my needs, like it felt like they were perhaps not as significant in the relate in like in relationships. Like my needs don't really matter. So I'll just people please and solve your problems and suit your needs.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Yeah, I think I always focus more on making them happy too, yeah, rather than like wait, if I'm happy, they're happy, and then both of us can be happy, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:22

Well, that goes back to that. There's that that phrase in there, happy wife, happy life. And it's like, that's not that's that, isn't it? It's it's people pleasing again.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

It's like I'm gonna suck it up.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

But at the same time, if you talk to you, it just makes me cringe when I hear that. It's like you know, then then it is happy wife and happy life, and you have your happy self and happy life, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:48

I think that really comes from. I mean, when I hear something like that, I could I could easily don't want to use the word assume, but it gives a good indication of what the child went through. It would be that comes from, you know, a child who who had a parent or both parents who could not control their emotions. And so the child feels like I need to make mommy or daddy happy so that they could be calm and give me the affection, the attention that I need. Yeah, because at the end of the day, I mean, little teeny tiny humans and even us grown-ups, we're we're an organism, we're an animal that needs to survive. And instinctually, we know we need our parents to survive. And if our parents are not regulated and they can't protect us, they're losing their crap over whatever is going on, they can't protect us. So we need to make sure that they're calm enough to make sure we're safe. And it's not just physical safety, even though it might be instinctual at that age to be physical, it's emotional safety. And I think that's what a lot of us miss. That the that goes back to the basics. We are human beings, it's an animal. The main purpose of that animal is to survive, and you see that the person who's supposed to protect you, you can't help yourself. That person is unable to do that because they're sitting in a corner crying or they're screaming and shouting, or they're drunk, or whatever is going on. They're not present and aware to protect you. So, what do I do? The anxious attach. Oh, let me make mommy happy, let me make daddy happy so they're going to be fine and focused, right? Or with the avoidant attach is oh crap, I can't depend on this person. Let me figure out how to keep myself safe. Like baby turtles, you know, the turtle mommy, she lays her eggs and covers it with sand. What happens with the babies? She leaves, babies hatched, and you're on your own, and what happens? They have some of them don't survive.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

That's true. But see, it's funny because that survival then kicks into because you mentioned all we want to do is survive, is but that's what our brains do too, with the stories that we tell ourselves, right? Like, oh, he doesn't care. Oh, I'm dumb, I'm stupid, I'm not enough, right? That's still right, because your brain is just like, oh, this is how you survived so far. So if I keep repeating this stuff, like I'm not enough, I'm not enough, this is how you live this long. So we're just gonna go in the loop and keep repeating that. That is that is all it is. It's the survival mechanism of the brain to keep repeating the stuff that we know objectively, right? On the conscious level, that is beyond not good for us for me to be telling myself I'm not good enough. But the subconscious, like, yeah, Marta, you're not, right? Again, it's like holding on to that survival for its dear life.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Yeah, it's what do I need to do to make sure I stay alive on this planet?

SPEAKER_03 42:03

Yeah, your brain doesn't care if you're in a relationship happy or not, you're alive, you're breathing. Bam, mission accomplished.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

That's it. You could procreate and you could breathe, we're good. Yeah. Next. You know, I'm actually thinking though, I was actually thinking about tribes. And if they would have this problem in Guyana, where I'm from, we have lots of tribes. I'm thinking I should probably go there and do uh research on the tribes because when my child is born, and I grew up in the camera. Yeah, yeah, but you know, I'm I'm thinking, I grew up in Guyana where we I'm I'm from a village, right? My my father's generation, they don't have attachment style issues, they got issues, but it's not they they all survive, they've all just figured out surviving. And when when I say attachment style issues, I mean the offsets of it. We don't hear about anxiety, depression, ADHD, nothing of the sort in that generation. But they also had the villagers would look out for each other. I remember this story about my dad when he was a little, he was young and and he had a lemonade bottle, and somebody thought it was a beer bottle. So they go home to his mother's uh and told the mother, hey, your son is is having a beer bottle, and then she's sending somebody else, a neighbor, to go get the, you know, and so the neighbors were involved. And I'm thinking with with tribes as well, the entire community is involved in raising the child. The child always feels cared for and protected.

SPEAKER_05 43:39

Takes a village to raise a child, as they say.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Right. But now in our modern day living, we're going to one person and expecting them to be that tribe. And yes, we need connection, but that comes from humans need connection, but that's from a tribe.

SPEAKER_05 43:56

Yeah. I don't know if I've had this conversation with you, Martha. I know I've had Or with other people, if you look at the D now. You know, I have this philosophy and I know it's not just mine, it's a shared one. But you know, the 2.4 children model is is detrimental to uh the child's well-being because as parents you're supposed to raise an adult to survive in the wild and thrive. But if your caregivers are not up to scratch, so we say, then the child doesn't really have a chance in hell because it's only getting its education from these two people. Because I found that when my stepdaughter was yeah, yeah, when my stepdaughter was a daycare from like a young age, six months old, she went to nursery. And I know my ex-wife and her ex-partner, they got a lot of grief for doing that. Now, when I came into the scene, I was like, no, I think this is a good thing because uh Caitlyn was getting mission there, sorry, was getting influences not just from all the other kids but from all the other adults, and there was a there was structure. It was more it's more like what you would get in an indigenous tribe community, so she's getting a very broad education from the caregivers, the other children, and share learning how to socialize at a young age, and uh she's gone up into a very well-rounded, wonderful human being. But the the criticism that uh they got at the time for doing that, and yeah, actually, that's probably the most healthy model because if you've got kids who are growing up under some people who have racist uh you know views, uh, right wing or extreme left, whatever you want to go with, if they grow up in their own, that's gonna be on them, and off we go.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Yeah, you think that's that's the only way yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:59

When you look at indigenous tribe, it's community, and it's in every the child influenced from all angles, everyone. Yeah, you have exposure to different things. So the the whole term of it it takes a village to raise a child is banned on the money, I think. I think one of the biggest problems problems in society is the parenting model that we have in the Western world because you're you're just growing up under the influence of two people who may not be fit for purpose.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Well, the other thing is we've learned a particular way from our parents, and we believe that's the right way. I mean, you look at social media, everybody's giving their opinion on what's right and what's wrong, right? And we forget that the individual has a mind of their own or should have a mind of their own. And I I've made this mistake. I've got four kids, I've made this mistake with the three girls, the older ones, until I don't know, maybe the girls were 12, 12, 10, and 8. And and I I try not to make that mistake with my son, where I say, think for yourself. And if you don't like something mommy's doing, question it, push back. I need to hear your opinions. And so he grew up, he grew up with that, and now the girls have it. But yeah, it's um you know, I've told my my kids forever, my job as your parent is to prepare you as best as I possibly could and guide you as best as I possibly could so that you could be fine in this world. That that's it. And then after that, you make your decisions. I'm out of here. Like you decide what's right for you and what's not right for you. But I I see it, I see it every day. And I don't I don't think, you know, this is not not to bash a parent. I know for the most part, parents are trying their best. They're trying their best, they want what's best for their kids. The way the children are are are looking at these experiences, how they're absorbing it, that that's a really tricky thing. It's a really tricky thing. You know, the the attachment style, secure attached. I've I've had a client who had incredible parents, and you know, he was he was adopted. I'm I'm changing a lot of this story because I don't like sharing about my clients, but the the gist of it is was adopted, incredible parents adopted him, and you would think that this child would grow into an adult who is securely attached. That did not happen because that child felt like I now owe it to my parents to be the best child I possibly can be, and that child turned out to be a fearful avoidant. So it's not always the parents, it is how the child perceives their experiences and what they take away from them. It's it's such a I swear to you, I've been growing really, really to hate this attachment thing. It's like a freaking disease.

SPEAKER_05 49:05

Well, it's also like as as we've discussed on on I think on the previous podcast, on social media, the demonization of fearful avoidance and dismissive avoidance, you know, that they get demonized almost like, yeah, you can't be with them, they're they're no good. We just push those over there. And it's like, what they're a whole it's not that simple. It's there's not a one shot.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Shoving me in the corner, Duncan. We're not shoving you in the corner.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

Could you imagine?

SPEAKER_05 49:36

Yeah, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna minimize your window.

SPEAKER_03 49:39

This is this is why I started training martial arts, so I can kick people's asses with well, wait, what's that movie?

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Nobody puts baby in the corner. Yes, nobody puts baby in the corner. That's right, that's right. No, I think we don't really pick well when it comes to attachment styles. We really don't see that the people, especially anxious attached, the brain is wired to be attracted to fearful avoidant and dismissive avoidant. Why? Because it's already programmed to believe that I've got to work for love and I'm gonna go towards this person who subconsciously, there's a part of me that already picked up this is going to be hard to achieve. So I'm gonna be attracted to that. And it's not just your romantic partners, it is going to be your favorite parent, but they're not avoidantly attached or looking that way with you. Check, check your other parent, how they're reacting. It's your best friend. Yeah, everyone, check on your parents. Yeah, it's your best friend. Like my father, I grew up absolutely adoring this man. The year of my life, he was always so calm, put together, ambitious. Boy, now I'm older. My mother was anxiously attached, and my father was fearful, avoidant. And who have I dated? Only fearful, avoidant, and dismissive avoidant. And a wonderful, still a wonderful man. I just didn't know what my mom was going through. And of course, I didn't know what he was going through with my mom because she was a typical anxious, attached. Poor thing. Wait, do we have the same people? Probably. We all do have the same. We do.

SPEAKER_05 51:22

Yeah, because that sounds that sounds very familiar to me, also. You know, as you as you were saying that, I was like, huh. What are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 51:31

Yeah, I was actually thinking, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write a post, and it's gonna start with I'll throw you say you wrote a poem. I was gonna I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start it with my what my my son is my son, is a dismissive avoidant. What an AH or what a jerk. And let's see how people react to that because that's what we're dealing with. The people that we love, little adorable, loving humans, carry these attachment styles, but we call them all of these names, like AH and jerk and all of it, when it's an ex and we forget that kids are walking around, and you know, our favorite actors, our favorite artists.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Well, and at the end of the day, it's funny. I was having this conversation like an hour ago. The end of the day, the attachment style is just a label, right? It's what's underneath that label, it's the core wounds that that need to be addressed and figured out and and and patched up. And I kind of started thinking about this as a scar, right? Because I'm a fearful avoidant and I have a scar. I have a fearful avoidance scar. So when something happens, my initial instinct is go the fearful avoidant route, right? Like that's like that's what I'm gonna do. It's just oh, my scar is burning, like Harry Potter. So I gotta like pull myself or Lord of the Rings too, if you know, you know. Anyways, I have to pull myself back and be like, no, no, it's just a scar now. You remember where that scar came from, but I know better ways to deal with it now. I'm taking the healthy route or the secure route or whatever route. So the scar is forever going to be there. Like my initial instinct will be to go and ah, but it's just the stopping myself, pulling back and rerouting in a different direction, right? But again, fearful avoidant is just a label. Like, what is it that makes me a fearful avoidant, right? Like, what is that core wound that makes me so? And and then we deal with that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Yeah, people take on that label like it's the whole person, the whole personality, it's just a part of the personality. There's so many parts of the human.

SPEAKER_05 53:54

Yeah, and that's what and that's what I find frustrating with that social media angle of literally, you know, yes, the the the the label, if you like, gets you kind of gets you in the room, but then the work starts there. It doesn't that that's not you don't write them off because they put they have these tendencies and exhibit these qualities. It's like, yeah, like Montesset. Yeah, okay. So why are you like that? Because it can all be undone.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

Pull the band-aid off and see what's underneath. What's underneath? It's kind of like, oh yeah, Marty, you're a nurse. So it I like to see it this way person comes in with a fever, right? That's the trigger. That's the trigger. Okay, what's causing the fever?

SPEAKER_03 54:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

There's a bacteria here, which is the attachment style. Okay, now how do we treat it? And so you can heal, right? That's what it is.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

Let's get you some antibiotics.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Yes, let's let's get you the antibiotics, which would be the tools to help you to heal, but it's not the entire person. The person is not the fever, the person is not the bacteria.

SPEAKER_03 55:02

It's no, there's a lot of other pieces, right? And and that's the thing. Like human psychology is so much more complex than just the attachment styles, right? Like we can address it and go through it, but there's also other things that affect us in our day-to-day life. Not to say, but I do think it's a big chunk of you know, explanation for why we react the way we react and why we are the way we are, but it's not all of it, right? It's not be all end all attachment styles. Poof, you're securely attached, you'll have no issues in life.

SPEAKER_05 55:37

I wish it was way more nuance. I wish it was though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

Life would be just boring. Yeah, and actually, no. Do you guys have any issues in life now that you're securely attached? What you still do?

SPEAKER_00 55:50

What are the issues? You know, I I was actually thinking about this because it it gets kind of annoying when somebody asks, like, don't you have anything that you worry about? I've been thinking about it. Still thinking about it. No, you know, I think I've just trained myself that whenever something pops up, I'll deal with it and get it over with. There's nothing to worry about if it's not happening.

SPEAKER_03 56:15

I don't want to worry in advance, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

You know, it's like I think, and and the other thing is someone had asked me about my relationship with Larry, is there nothing you like about him? I said, you know, I spent so many years focusing on what I do like and what I'm grateful for, and that's what I enjoy. That everything else is like, I I don't I guess whatever it is, it's it's if there is something to not like, it is not so loud to cause a disruption or anxiety. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 56:51

But can we also go over the fact that holy smokes, who came up with this belief that if it was right, then it would be easy? Who came up with that? That relationships are meant to be easy because like I completely disagree with that anyway, because nothing easy, nothing easy's ever been worth it.

SPEAKER_05 57:11

Everything that you've that's been worthwhile in your life that's been successful, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:15

You've had to work for, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Yeah, I mean the first first two years wasn't that easy.

SPEAKER_05 57:20

Yeah, everything so to assume that relationships are supposed to be easy is no, I don't buy that at all. Sorry, no, no, I I agree because that because that would mean that one of you has to hand it to the other and completely submit.

SPEAKER_03 57:34

That you're dating a copy of yourself, you know, and then how exciting is that?

SPEAKER_00 57:40

But then it's also I feel like the part of it that is work, and and this is something I I feel like we really need to be careful with. The part of the relationship that is work is getting to know the other person, understanding who they are, understanding ourselves in the relationship, asking ourselves, is this something that works for the life I want to build for myself? Right? Making a few compromises if if they're healthy, but the work should not be this person was amazing when we met, they're different now, and I need to change them and make them into who I want them to be. That is not the work.

SPEAKER_03 58:28

No, that is not what we're saying. Yeah, changing your partner is not the work I'm referring to, but I think it's such a gift when your partner does bring out in you your issues to a certain degree, right? When when you are with a partner and they do trigger that core wound, I think that is, and people are gonna roll their eyeballs at me because I just did myself, but it's such a gift, right? Because certain things don't present until such time that you're in a relationship, right? Something has to be triggered by a relationship. And then the core wound that I've had is now exposed. And guess what? Now we get to make a conscious decision if you and I, and obviously most of it would be on me to work on me, but also if you and I want to patch this up together, patch that humpty dumpty human being that I am and humpty dumpty that you are, and and realign again over and over and over again, because that's what love is. It's choosing your person every single day to continue to be your person, right? And there's gonna be bumps along the way, and there's gonna be new things that come up from under that band-aid. And do we do we continue choosing that? Right, but them reflecting those core wounds, that's a gift. If if they're not reflecting that in you, then are you 12? Are you dating at like are you both 12 and just just don't have any issues? Like your partner is supposed to bring that out in you and and you then address that together, right? That's the beauty of relationships.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

And I also to add on to that, I feel like the way we know, the way we know what we need to work on is when we're triggered, catch yourself before you get defensive. Because that trigger is the thing, yeah. That trigger is the thing that needs healing. Now you pause, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:25

That's like the fundamental, I would say, is yeah, like I I've had it back to me that I'm not so reactive anymore. I've better I'm I'm not so defensive, I'm not so reactive, and that's yeah, that's recognizing, you know, if you'll feel it, but then you get a choice whether you react or just see how I was talking about, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

You pause and ask, okay, why am I?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

And generally that trigger, when we feel that trigger, not only is it saying that there's something here that needs healing, it's also saying maybe a subconscious level, I believe it to be true. If we get defensive, there's some truth to it.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like when people say if someone annoys you, if there's a person that constantly annoys you, ask yourself why. Is it because you see something in your in them that reminds you of what you do, then it's just easy to project into them.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Oh, yeah. I still go through that whenever I meet someone who's anxiously attached, and I see where some like, no, no, I just don't like them. No, no, no. I I get so triggered because now it's like I see myself, I see the past me, and I see how this person's behavior, as sweet as they are, as caring and and forgiving and accommodating they are, is setting them up for pain. And I want to say, you don't have to be this person. You're okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:01

So, question for you guys then have you noticed that since doing your inner work, have you noticed that maybe in some ways you're not as patient, or where you may be like, maybe I just see it quicker now, or or you know what I mean? Like, I I recognize it in people quicker, and I think I'm just like I'm not stepping into that, right? Be it a romantic relationship or a new friendship or whatever. I'm like, Yeah, you know, I'm not choosing this for me now, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd say more of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

That's more of the boundary and not so much being patient, it's more of a boundary to quickly catch the thing that I'm I'm choosing not to get involved in again, and saying in that moment, I'm not prolonging it, I'm not dragging you along, I'm just saying this is not something for me. Yeah, I'm not even apologizing for it, just this is not something for me. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, the thing about healing is that it's it's kind of like getting laser treatment for your eyes, it just opens up and you see everything clearly, quickly. You spot a red flag in anything someone says or even their behavior. You're too nice to me. You don't know me. Yeah, why are you saying I don't think you're I don't think you're trying to manipulate me deliberately. I think there's something that you What kind of people pleasing are you doing? Yeah, you see it, you see it right away. See right away. You know, one of the things Larry and I love to do is we would go out and we could tell if someone is on our first date or not. And a lot of time we're overhearing their conversation, you pick up the red flag right there, and I we always can tell when the anxious attached is not seeing that red flag. The guy who's looking at the television screen, right? He's just looking at the game and that their first date. And and he's like, Oh, I'm I'm so sorry. Uh, yeah, I'm a little caught up with the game. And she's like, Oh no, it's okay. I could I I like that you're into it. I'm like, no, no, no, but in three months, you're gonna be so annoyed that he's sitting there neglecting you and watching this game. Like, it's literally carry around the game, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:20

Carry around a whole pack of like red flags when you're out and about, and then you go over and you just stick it on the table, send it to people, just hand it to people.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:29

That's funny.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:30

Yeah, just sit on the table in front of sticking this burger.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:33

What the I really want to there is a guy online, right? The the green flag guy or something.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:39

How did you film it?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:40

Is he filming it? Okay, nuts.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:42

There you go. There's your marketing strategy.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

I would really, I would really sometimes, oh, sometimes I hear it and I want to go over and say, Honey, you need to find a courage. Let's go, I'll take you with me. Let's go get out of here. Come under my wing.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:56

This guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

But yeah, healing does that. You see it, and people say, Well, well, that sounds like I'll be alone forever. Well, you have two choices. You want to stay in a relationship like this, or you'd rather wait. It's a choice. It's a healing is a choice. It's not easy, it's not comfortable, but it is so worth it.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:19

No, it's not. You know, we've discussed before about sometimes when you're in masking and things.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:25

Yeah. Sometimes when you're in a midst of it, it doesn't feel like it's worth it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

But when you're roll dogging it, it's like yeah, and you know, there's one thing that I want to touch on before we rush off. Healing doesn't mean that you're not going to be triggered. Yeah, people tend to say, Oh, but when am I going to heal? Never. Because you start on the journey of healing, you stay on it. Just like you start on a journey of pain and you don't get off of it, you stay in it forever. Same thing with healing. There's always going to be something to work through. Because that's just how life is, and as you grow, as hopefully you evolve, you're going to have jobs that you need to navigate, confidence issues with work, or whatever it is you want to do. It depends on how you want to grow. But healing always happens, you're always going to be triggered. The difference is instead of being reactive, you are in control of your reaction. You can pause in real time when you're triggered. And you can choose, I think that's the thing, the empowerment. You choose how you're going to respond and react and when you're going to do it. Because I know a lot of times I would say, I need some time to process this. I can't, I can't right now. And then you come back and you, yeah, and God, life is good. And I so, so, so want everyone to experience this. I promise you, I want everyone to experience this. It's, I mean, from being in relationships where you're anxious and begging and flying halfway around the world to be with a guy to convince him, yeah, I did that to be with me at 27 when I was young and all the good stuff full of energy. That's what I was doing to now being like absolute at peace. That is, oh God, I want everyone to have it. I'll figure out how to get the red pill and the blue pill.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:23

I'm not at peace yet, just FYI for everyone out there, okay? Just throwing it out there. I'm not at peace. You'll get there. Getting there. Um, and getting there feels pretty good too. Just uh, what is it? It's not the mountains, the climb, whatever. Part of it is true. Part of the climb is like Mount Everest, and it's ugly and it's gross, and there's potentially a lot of crying. Not that I know that. But and make sure you bring snacks for for the road, but like it's a journey worth taking, okay? Yeah, snacks are key. Snacks and Kleenex, but yeah. Oh, yeah. If you're Duncan, bring Prosecco. The Brits.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

Duncan, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:13

Sorry?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

Any last thoughts you'd like to share before?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:16

Last thoughts. Yes, I did, I did have one until I picked up the prosecco. Oh, that was it. Yes. Yeah, there is this this well, I I I believe in my perspective. A perspective that attachment theory is just about romantic relationships. I think it does get much bigger than that. It's it's much it it encompasses all all relationships in your life, as as we discussed when you've got a fearful avoiding as parents dynamic there, it's not I think the way social media pushes it is it's all about break-ups, isn't it? Which is the main reason people get intrigued by it. That's that's your main introduction to it, but it's bigger than that. That's that's kind of what I'd say, and it can help you elsewhere, not just in you know, it's it will help you in all aspects of relationships in life, not just romantic.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:17

Yeah, thank you for that. It just helped me. I remember something that I wanted to address for those people who are mistaking the work that I do. I am not a get your ex back coach. I don't do that, I can't make that promise. I cannot help you control or manipulate another human being. But what does happen, what can happen if the other person is open to being in a relationship with you again after a breakup is I can help you, and now Marta and Duncan will be helping me to do this, heal your attachment style so that you could set boundaries and have the kind of relationship that you want with a person who is coming back. Because as Marta mentioned earlier, you can't get back together with the same behaviors and patterns and expect a successful relationship. I've mentioned Larry and I broke up. The only reason I believe that our relationship is uh working out the way it is right now, where we're both happy. Yes, I'm speaking for him. So why wouldn't he be? Um during the time of our breakup, I got to work. I got seriously working. I spent a lot of hours by myself working through patterns, changing patterns deliberately, deliberate effort. I'm not talking at the end, I mean, I'm not kidding. At the end of the day, I was exhausted with the work that I was doing on myself. And we came back together when I felt ready. When I felt like I was ready to slowly get back into our relationship. So we didn't leave the relationship, jump back in, and picked up where we left off. It was not easy. He had to learn about this whole new me. He even said it a few times like, I don't like this version. It's like too bad. The old old one's gone. You want to be with a version, you could get to know me and make a decision, but that person's not coming back. So we don't do let's your get back your ex. We do let's heal your attachment styles, let's work through the things that's been holding you back from having that kind of relationship that you want. So you could set boundaries and see how the other person shows up for you. And then you decide if you want to have a relationship with that person. So it's all about empowering you through healing your attachment style or helping you to heal your attachment style.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:41

And just to kind of add on to that a little bit, real quick, I don't think there is a version of going back to like picking up where we left off. Because, right, if at least one person has done the work, it's no longer A plus B equals C. Now we have a totally different equation. And both people in this scenario, right? Let's say you are planning on like, okay, let's try again. You have to realize we're not restarting, we're not performing CPR. No, we're starting with a brand new baby, right? Both parties kind of have to be like, you can discuss the past, you can go over that, and then you have to forgive and let go of that chunk and then build fresh, right? Otherwise, otherwise the past is gonna drag you down. So it's yeah, it's not CPR, it's starting anew if if that were to take place.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:38

Just one more thing I wanted to add to what I said earlier, because I know it's social media people love to take a clip and run with it. When I said that Larry said he didn't like this version, it was not the version that he was used to. And over time, he started to respect the new version, which I believe is what caused the attraction between us. And as I changed, I believe that pushed him into facing his fears, being more vulnerable, see how he's going to be received. And then with now, I'm not being passive-aggressive, I'm clear. So he's got a clear map as to how I want to be treated. There's no you need to guess how to treat me or guess how to show up in a relationship. I'm being very specific and I'm not telling you what to do. It's this is what I'm not okay with, and this is what I'm okay with, and I'm grateful. So it's gratitude and stating what you're not okay with. I never had to say there's a consequence for it, right? It's just, hey, I'm I'm really not okay with this. You could imagine whatever you want. That's your healing work, right? That's your healing work. If you're afraid, your healing work, and thank God he's in, he's also been in therapy for a number of years. So, you know, I just wanted to clear that up because people would think, oh, well, so he didn't like diversion, so he keeps pushing back. No, no, no, no. You don't you don't do those things when you become securely attached. You don't get involved in relationships where people are pushing back on your boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:13

It just took him a minute to realize that was new and improved.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

Yeah. And we're, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And you, you know, the the thing about these relationships is that you start to feel it. Yeah, people used to uh I used to hear it, you know, people will say you could feel when someone's in a relationship. You feel when they're committed. Yeah, you do. You could feel it. You have to hear it. You could just feel it. Yeah, good stuff. I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:44

Well, I am very, very happy to have the two of you with me. Well, I'm excited to be here. Yeah. So I think we should do this every month, where the three of us come together and we give our audience a little bit of decoding attachment style. We'll let them know what we've been seeing on you know, their questions that they're going to be sending into the now subscription program that we've started. You could send your questions in and we're going to be answering them here as well as on the subscription and discussing little issues. Sound with a pretty good plan. All righty. Well, guys, don't forget if you have not subscribed to Decoding Attachment Style, please do so and share this episode with your friends, family, and whoever else who may benefit from it. Thanks again. I'm Annalisa Bahadur, and joining me was Marta and Duncan.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:41

Thank you. Thank you.